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All comments were taken from the Bulletin Board of www.exmormon.org this last week in
August, 1998. This site is devoted to the recovery of those wishing to get out and away from the
Mormon religion.
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Posted by Walker on August 28, 1998 at 12:04:33:
Couple weeks ago we had the mandatory traditional priesthood lesson on tithing. Fire insurance,
"incomprehensible blessings", personal testimonials, etc. Then the question on everyone's mind was asked (on
everyone's mind even though it's been answered thousands before) "Do we pay on the gross or
on the net?"
The usual speculation followed, "Do you want to receive blessings on the net or on the gross?"
The instructor again testified that if we pay more, we will actually have more money to spend.
That ticked me off so I shared my story:
Up until a few ago I faithfully paid tithing on the gross. First I lost my wife, then I lost my job.
The church offered to make my mortgage payments. That's nice but I'm too proud; so I sold my
house instead.
Useless tithing law! So I stopped paying. (Fateful mistake TBMS?)
Soon I had three job offers. Now I make twice as much as I used to. Two years ago I decided to
limit my tithing contribution to about 1% of my salary. Two months later I got a $6000 bonus.
Since I've been paying very small amounts of tithing, my finances have been much better. I have
a house again and I'm out of debt. I'll be buying a new truck soon.
At this point some of the guys felt uneasy. So I gave them what they wanted, "Well, I did get
cancer last year." "Ahh", the instructor sighed in relief.
Some of the guys didn't know what to think. A few were entertained. Many were dozing.
I hope there is something in that story for everyone. It's all true.
Oh, and my cancer is healed now: too bad for the TBMs.
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Posted by Queen Liberal on August 28, 1998 at 19:14:58:
In Reply to: Tithing Story posted by Walker on August 28, 1998 at 12:04:33:
There are six kids in my family - mom dropped out a semester before graduating from BYU to
raise us kids. Parents faithfully paid their tithing even though we were dirt poor and got deseret
food every single month from the Church. For crying out loud - the Church was helping my
family pay rent and utilities and my parents were still paying tithing?!
We never had any sort of health insurance growing up, - how tacky is this - no car insurance - but
my parents paid tithing.
I had absolutely no money from my parents for college and now have $20,000 in school loans to
repay. Instead of contributing in a college fund for us kids, my parents paid tithing.
We never had new cars, never went on vacation, never got new clothes, our house was a dump
with beat up furniture, I had to ask local businesses to come up with $200 so I could accompany
the high school choir (I was their accompaniest) on a trip, my parents declared personal
bankruptcy twice, my family had two houses repossessed and two cars repossesed along with a
houseful of furniture once, we never got Christmas presents (mom said Santa skipped our house
one year even though the Church goodie-box givers found it), YET MY PARENTS STILL PAID
TITHING?!?!?!?!?!
Note to parents: you guys *weren't blessed* by paying tithing!!!
Zoom to future:
After graduating from BYU I have a job that pays in the mid 5 figures (pretty good for a 25 year old), we have money in the bank, we have a college fund started for my baby son, we have nice (read: matching) furniture, we drive a new car, I wear fashionable clothes, we go on vacations, we get real gifts (not anonymously) for Christmas and birthdays, and I DON'T PAY
TITHING
And you better believe I'm faithfully taking that little green pill everyday to make damn sure we
don't have too many mouths to feed and not enough money to do it with!
Queen Liberal
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Posted by anonymous on August 29, 1998 at 12:12:01:
In Reply to: Another tithing story . . . . posted by Queen Liberal on August 28, 1998 at 19:14:58:
::my parents declared personal bankruptcy twice, my family had two houses repossessed and two
cars repossesed along with a houseful of furniture once,
Yeah, right. God wants mormons to pay tithing rather than paying debts they have incurred. Its
ok to cheat or steal from other people --- as long as you pay tithing.
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Posted by Trixie on August 28, 1998 at 18:16:01:
In Reply to: Tithing Story posted by Walker on August 28, 1998 at 12:04:33:
My exhusband and I constantly struggled financially, due largely to the fact that he, as an
unmedicated manic depressive, was NOT exactly the ideal person to be running his own
business. Anyway, I faithfully tithed for years, even when it meant asking my father for grocery
money, the ultimate humiliation. Somehow, despite all that sacrifice and obedience, our financial
situation only worsened as time went by. Finally, (when I was on my way out) I said NO MORE
and decided to live the law of common sense instead of the law of tithing.
The thought of the church draining ten percent from struggling families, usually LARGE
families, just to build ornate temples and send MORE people on missions, is obscene.
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Posted by Boaz on August 28, 1998 at 13:41:27:
In Reply to: Tithing Story posted by Walker on August 28, 1998 at 12:04:33:
Walker-
I quit paying tithing years ago when in order to do it we kept getting a little farther into debt every month. Nothing really dramatic, but it just strapped us out a little too much and we built up a pretty good debt just trying to be righteous. Finally Rhonda put her foot down and said enough is enough. It was one of our first steps out. God, it was refreshing to just not go to the dreaded year-end tithing review and guilt trip. We just said no, the Ward clerk gave us a strange look and tried to apply pressure, but I took a little evil pleasure in saying I wasn't going this year. Kinda like a couple months later when the Bishop showed up and invited us to "temple preparation" class. Just said no. Loved the look of shock on his face.
Sorry to hear you went through cancer last year. I did too. My Father thought it would shock my out of being a lukewarm
member making "save face" appearances at church. He even said "Things like this can really
make you aware of the important things in life". Yes, it did shock me out of my complacency,
only in the opposite direction. I realized that I only have one life, and to live it giving allegience
to an organization you didn't agree with or believe in is wrong. Since we don't know how long we
have, its a serious sin to not enjoy and live life to its fullest. And I intend to.
BTW, my cancer is healed, too.
Boaz
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Posted by Walker on August 28, 1998 at 23:25:38:
In Reply to: cancer and tithing posted by Boaz on August 28, 1998 at 13:41:27:
: Yes, it did shock me out of my complacency, only in the opposite direction. I realized that I
only have one life, and to live it giving allegience to an organization you didn't agree with or
believe in is wrong. Since we don't know how long we have, its a serious sin to not enjoy and
live life to its fullest. And I intend to.
Yes, that's exactly how I feel. I'm so sorry for people who cloister their lives in hopes of some eternal reward only to find out
their one glorious and brief moment on earth is gone and it's too late to enjoy the full experience
they should have had.
That was almost me.
: BTW, my cancer is healed, too.
Great! Keep it up.
--Walker
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Posted by Vincent on August 28, 1998 at 13:24:06:
In Reply to: Tithing Story posted by Walker on August 28, 1998 at 12:04:33:
Great story.
Back in my TBM days I (along with the wife and kids) lived at the poverty level in order to give
our "all" to the corporation. I used to argue (fight was more like it) with the ex. over the amount
we handed over to the bishop. It just didn't make sense to me. (still dosen't) My parents did the
same thing. The church always came first. We grew up barely getting by because my dad was
sure something terrible would happen to us if we spent the money on a decent car or a nice
vacation. Well, all those years of bending over and kissing ass to the church paid off. My parents
divorced. My mom wanted a life. Dad was married to the church and everything went to the
church. What really 'burned my bridges' was the way alot of the members reacted when my
parents divorced. They were so judgemental and mean. I'll never forget the sense of betrayal my
sisters and I felt when people started avoiding us and talking behind our backs. And this is what
we get for giving EVERYTHING?
Well, It wasn't my intention to dig up that part of my past. Maybe I needed too. I've never talked
about it before. I feel a little better now.
It's so nice to be financially stable FINALLY! I love the fact that I get to choose WHO and how
much I contribute to. I really don't worry about the "reward or a lack there of" in the next life. I
want to make each day of this life count. I feel like I can make a tiny difference now by
contributing to more worthwhile causes than the "corporation of the president".
Vincent
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Posted by Diane on August 28, 1998 at 14:54:28:
In Reply to: Thanks for sharing. Similar exeriences. posted by Vincent on August 28, 1998 at
13:24:06:
Yup. I can relate. I payed my tithing up until I made the decision to leave. I didn't want it to be a
factor in my leaving. But with 5 kids and me staying at home, even thought my husband makes
pretty good salary, there is nothing left and we were sinking more and more into debt just to live.
It has been very frustrating and discouraging. Stress on our family and marriage that we just
didn't need. It is such a relief now that I have left (or more accurately am leaving) because now
we have a little breathing room. We are also giving to worthy charities that we never could
support before.
Diane
: Great story.
: Back in my TBM days I (along with the wife and kids) lived at the poverty level in order to give
our "all" to the corporation. I used to argue (fight was more like it) with the ex. over the amount
we handed over to the bishop. It just didn't make sense to me. (still dosen't) My parents did the
same thing. The church always came first. We grew up barely getting by because my dad was
sure something terrible would happen to us if we spent the money on a decent car or a nice
vcation. Well, all those years of bending over and kissing ass to the church paid off. My parents
divorced. My mom wanted a life. Dad was married to the church and everything went to the
church. What really 'burned my bridges' was the way alot of the members reacted when my
parents divorced. They were so judgemental and mean. I'll never forget the sense of betrayal my
sisters and I felt when people started avoiding us and talking behind our backs. And this is what
we get for giving EVERYTHING?
: Well, It wasn't my intention to dig up that part of my past. Maybe I needed too. I've never talked
about it before. I feel a little better now.
: It's so nice to be financially stable FINALLY! I love the fact that I get to choose WHO and how
much I contribute to. I really don't worry about the "reward or a lack there of" in the next life. I
wnt to make each day of this life count. I feel like I can make a tiny difference now by
contributing to more worthwhile causes than the "corporation of the president".
: Vincent
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Posted by solomonskink on August 28, 1998 at 15:34:25:
In Reply to: 5 kids, stay at home mom... posted by Diane on August 28, 1998 at 14:54:28:
: Yup. I can relate. I payed my tithing up until I made the decision to leave. I didn't want it to be a
factor in my leaving.
Us too.
Our out was pretty sudden, I suppose we decided one day that our own judgements were better
than the party line and just left. I remember getting the next paycheck and feeling guilty that I
wasn't paying tithing on it even though there was no way in hell I was going back to church.
I'm over that now.
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Posted by Bryan on August 28, 1998 at 12:31:00:
In Reply to: Tithing Story posted by Walker on August 28, 1998 at 12:04:33:
If most members 'paid' themselves 9% of gross (15% would be better, but I'm going for the 10%
example here), in an well-managed stock or balanced fund, people wouldn't need 'god' to help
them take care of their monetary needs. With the left-over 1% the church could run a lean, but
effective humanitarian organization that was more concerned with helping people than building
up some corporation...err...God's Kingdom.
I have felt the spirit, so I must have just received revelation from the Her Holiness, the IPU. :-)
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Posted by happy in Calif. on August 28, 1998 at 12:14:28:
Has anyone considered some kind of class action claim to recover some of the tithing we paid?
personally, I was defrauded out of about $75,000 over the last 16 years. I am not a lawyer, but it
seems like some kind of fraud or mis represenation. The pressure to live the "celestial law" is
very strong. Yes I am serious!
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Posted by MikeJ(TX) on August 30, 1998 at 00:08:45:
In Reply to: Tithing law suit? posted by happy in Calif. on August 28, 1998 at 12:14:28:
This same thread crossed the exmoromon e-mail forum some time ago -- I think about a year. I'm
cutting and pasting my comments here:
<>
Well,
I guess I can't ignore this one much longer can I? ; ) Actually, for many of the same reasons
submitted by Richard, I was going to just ignore this "thread" until it disappeared b/c my personal
opinion is such a suit would be "loser". Like Richard, let me preface my remarks by saying this is
MERELY MY PERSONAL OPINION, this is not "legal advice" (...also - it's based on my
limited knowledge of the laws of the state in which I am licensed - Texas)
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Posted by JohnC on August 30, 1998 at 06:54:33:
In Reply to: In Texas - a tithing suit would be a loser. posted by MikeJ(TX) on August 30, 1998
at 00:08:45:
I'm not an attorney, but I believe that a class action tithing suit is worthy of investigation.
Certainly, there must have been prior suits against charities that misrepresented facts about their
organization.
The church has definitely misrepresented its history, and plenty of evidence exists for proving
such misrepresentation. As for the "reliance" issue, you state that the "opposition would most
certainly argue that one has a 'duty to investigate.'" I cannot imagine the church's defense
consisting of a declaration that any idiot could have determined that it was lying.
And, what if the suit fails? At least it would have publicized the lies of the church. I suspect that
every paper would pick up that story.
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Posted by Bryan on August 28, 1998 at 12:39:27:
In Reply to: Tithing law suit? posted by happy in Calif. on August 28, 1998 at 12:14:28:
This was answered a long time ago by a lawyer in (Calif or Texas) who was on the bb. I will
paraphrase to the best of my memory.
Essentially you cannot claim any damages in a lawsuit of this kind because you were not
provided a 'material benefit'. The church makes no promise or warranty of any such benefit (that
can be legally proved anyway). When you contribute and take those contributions as a deduction
on your taxes, you have essentially agreed to this 'contract'.
(my thoughts): Sorry, but the only thing you can do is try to remember any fond memories
(benefit) you derived from your involvement with the Church and move on. Stop paying if you
haven't already. Start spending that amount into a 'retirement fund' or into many other noteworthy
charitable organizations who actually spend more than a fraction of 1% of their receipts on trying
to help people and make the world a better place.
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Posted by Phil on August 28, 1998 at 17:16:26:
In Reply to: Sorry... posted by Bryan on August 28, 1998 at 12:39:27:
Yeah, but what if you didn't claim it on your taxes? For some folks (like me), it's just better to
take the standard deductions than to itemize. Besides, you did receive a material benefit (if you
call call it a benefit). You received entrance to the Temple...that otherwise would be cut off from
you. Remember, no tithing means no temple recommend. Or, conversly: Tithing Recommend =
Celestial Glory. Without tithing, you'll never get to the big CK in the sky. And, I guess in our
case, Outer Darkness is our destination.
Anyhow, it always pissed me off that we had to pay a (sort of) entrance fee (read tithing) to get into the Temple. And, quite frankly, after my first trip, I wanted a refund. Maybe LDS Inc. has figured all the loopholes in this tithing thing, but I have a feeling that someone (hopefully soon) will *finally* find a way to beat them at their own game. I wish I was an attorney,
because I would take this one on personally...FREE, even So...I guess the bottom line, here, is
one question: Is there any attorney out there with the guts to take on Big Brother?
Phil